Talk:Pagans

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Great Holy Wars[edit]

Which Natures enable Great Holy Wars for the reformed faith? Just Unyielding (which enables it according to description, while Peaceful disables it according to description) or others as well? --RedsimonDE (talk) 23:55, 17 January 2019 (CET)

Reformation and succession[edit]

I'm wondering if part of this page is out of date. reforming the Germanic faith as the Emperor of Scandanavia does not enable additional succession laws. If that changed in a recent patch, or if there are additional nuances, can we update this page? 74.112.244.13

I'm guessing you're still tribal, which is indeed a new mechanic. I changed this page to say: "They gain access to all normal succession laws... once they go feudal and meet crown authority requirements." Maybe later I'll go back and redo the section to explain the place of reformation in the standard "tribal pagan success sequence": conquer holy sites -> reform the religion -> go feudal -> change succession law Jruderman (talk) 07:32, 26 February 2015 (CET)
Sure would be nice if the succession UI included showed the other laws disabled with the conditions labeled. Or replaced the entire succession section with a "steps toward feudalism" for tribals (progress toward reformation, tech requirements met, highest and average hillfort, etc). Jruderman (talk) 07:37, 26 February 2015 (CET)

Bön can be reformed[edit]

Also, the page states that Bon cannot be reformed, which I know is now false. Ix:Risor

Hellenic holy site map[edit]

The list of two Hellenic holy sites are different from the map shown(which can really confuse people as the list of the sites is correct but the map is wrong), The temple of Edessa in the county of Thessalonike, (map shows county of Serrae) & The temple of Lentini in the County Siracusa (Map shows county of Abydos) If a player isn't familiar with the locations of the holy sites the map is going to lead them to target the wrong counties which will annoy them. And given that Thessalonike and Serrae are side by side it would be REAL annoying to conquer Serrae thinking that is the county you need, as Thessalonike is a much better country, twice as good. Thessalonike as neighbouring county means you are very likely to have been able to of attacked it instead, in terms of CB, logistics and tactical considerations but the map told you to attack the wrong inferior county. I think we should remove the map until such time as it is correct.

Split out religion features?[edit]

It might be good to move the "Reformation in Holy Fury" section to a new page titled "Religion features", because:

  • This page is very long.
  • This page has two sections labeled "Strategies".
  • The "reformation in Holy Fury" section is heavily nested, so headers don't stand out well.
  • Religion features are also relevant to Random worlds, where all religion groups use them, and settings other than leadership can be changed by players during setup.

However, I'm not sure where the section "Traits inherited from unreformed religion" would go if we did this split.

Thoughts? Jruderman (talk) 23:12, 19 December 2018 (CET)

I'd think it'd make more sense to have "Reformation" in general split off as its own page then just "Reformation in HF," but yeah your justification is sensible. Having an small blurb on reformation on this page would absolutely make sense, but as a concept reformation is very... very complicated in a sense, and we've individual wiki pages for other religious unique concepts already which are simpler, like the Antipope system or Decadence. Cuttlefishman (talk) 09:31, 20 December 2018 (CET)

The Reformation section, or more specifically the section listing natures, doctrines, and leadership would also be a lot shorter if we removed the images and the flavour text associated with each of them. As they're not gameplay influencing elements, I think it'd be okay if we didn't include them (and also, most players won't be interacting with them more than once a game, when they do reform their religion).

For the random world religions, I think a short blurb again on this page (or on the main religion page?) might make sense, but then there probbably wants to be presented in the long form Alternate Start / Random Worlds page, where it can be explained as a part of world generation as a whole. Cuttlefishman (talk) 15:15, 20 December 2018 (CET)

Indicate features kept in reformation?[edit]

In the feature lists at Pagans#Germanic etc, ironstag suggests indicating which features will be kept on reformation. I think it would be nice to do this, if we can find a way that's clear and doesn't make the sections too wordy or visually noisy.

Most are either:

  • always lost in reformation
  • always kept in reformation
  • kept in reformation if you lack HF, or have HF and pick the most similar set of reformation features

We considered using icons, as below, but I'm not entirely happy with how it looks.

Prepared invasion (unreformed) (reformation option: Germanic unique doctrine "Sons of Ragnarok")
Germanic rulers may announce invasion on specified target and call adventurers from all over the Norse world to serve in their expedition. (Functionally creating an event army stack that grows every few months until the invasion is launched.) Prepared invasions can also be called by vassals. However, if the game starts at 769, they must wait for a special event to grant Shipbuilding II before they can rain havoc on Europe.
Viking traits (unreformed) (reformed)
Rulers may gain the Viking trait by sacking holdings, increasing martial skill and same faith opinion.

Jruderman (talk) 03:53, 31 December 2018 (CET)

I think the second looks a bit better, but the icons in of themselves don't really indicate if the third circumstance, "kept in reformation if you lack HF, or have HF and pick the most similar set of reformation features" if applicable.

Cuttlefishman (talk) 15:21, 1 January 2019 (CET)

Categorization of Hellenic[edit]

This article lists Hellenic as an offensive religion, but it's not clear to me why it's in that group. Jruderman (talk) 10:39, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

I moved Hellenic out of the "offensive religion" group Jruderman (talk) 23:16, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

Dogmatic nature alikes[edit]

Dogmatic nature have nothing to do with Islam. In the game muslims are free to marry who ever they want and will convert other faiths if zealous. Who ever wrote about Dogmatic being similar to Islam is just biased.

Reformed pagan missionaries[edit]

The section on pagan reform states that reformed pagans still can't send out missionaries, but the section on the Proselytizing nature states that they have a bonus to missions. Is it **only** pagans with this nature that can send them out?