Talk:Traits

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New section[edit]

Should Muslim specific traits be under the "Special" section like Crusader and Excommunicated, or should it have its own section? Sadir (talk) 05:54, 11 September 2012 (CEST)

How many of them are there? If there's more than half a dozen or so, a category of its own would be best. BTW, don't forget to sign your comments on Talk pages (four ~ in a row). ~ Meneth (talk) 22:39, 10 September 2012 (CEST)
I popped open a saved game and found 6 (7 if you count the temporary on Hajj): Hajajj, Faqih, Mujadeen, Hafiz, Sayyid, and Mirza. Technically, Sayyid and Mizra are "genetic" traits and can be passed onto non-Muslims. Sadir (talk) 05:52, 11 September 2012 (CEST)
Should probably be a separate section then. ~ Meneth (talk) 08:03, 11 September 2012 (CEST)

Splitting list of traits[edit]

Might it be a good idea to split the list of traits from the discussion of traits as a whole? The list is quite long, after all, and it would still benefit from more information. For example, it would be nice if the description of each trait was listed in the table. This article could discuss the importance of traits and how to obtain good ones, while the list would be independent for people who wanted to look up a particular trait. Kimberly (talk) 23:11, 1 January 2013 (CET)

Trait codes[edit]

Most of the traits can be given to your character through the Console commands. I can't however figure out the code for Attractive. It should be attractive if it followed the normal pattern but it isn't: attractive, Attractive, beautiful, nor handsome. Morris (talk) 03:53, 6 July 2014 (CEST)

It is named "fair" in the code. ~ Meneth (talk) 12:49, 6 July 2014 (CEST)
Was wondering if we shouldn't put the trait code (ID = fair) instead of numerical (ID = 53) in the table ? I don't know where those numerical IDs are used: in save files maybe ?
They're used in saves, yeah. ~ Meneth (talk) 13:32, 6 July 2014 (CEST)

new traits, feel free to update[edit]

jungle terrain leader: 173 (or 174?)

war elephant leader: 174 (or 173)

winter soldier: 182

Chaste Muslims?[edit]

So according to this page, Muslims can't have the chaste trait.

While I've never seen a chaste Muslim in a normal Iqta game, I was playing as a Muslim merchant republic today and got this screenshot.

What gives? Is this a glitch? Or is the restriction on chaste applied to Iqta government and not Muslim religion or something?

--StupidLemonEater (talk) 05:25, 19 May 2016 (CEST)

Was her government type merchant republic when she acquired the trait? Compassionate727 (talk) 16:17, 19 May 2016 (CEST)
I can't be sure exactly when she acquired the trait but I'm fairly certain her government has been MR for her entire life. As you can see, she's only 16.--StupidLemonEater (talk) 18:37, 19 May 2016 (CEST)

Article reorganization[edit]

Do you think it would be better to keep all the health traits (symptoms, diseases, and everything else) in the same table in the traits article or separate them? - Gamengervi (talk) @ 13:10, 27 August 2016 (CEST)

Separate tables (symptoms, diseases, maimed traits) would probably be more flexible and easier to navigate -Romulien (talk) 13:24, 27 August 2016 (CEST)
Would one-eyed, one-handed, and one-legged go into this section or a different one? - Gamengervi (talk) @ 13:29, 27 August 2016 (CEST)
They should as they have is_health = yes, but could be in a new maimed traits sub-section ? But most important is to add them somewhere, after it will be relatively easy to re-organized later once we have the full picture ! :) -Romulien (talk) 13:33, 27 August 2016 (CEST)
Alright. I will add the traits and make sure all the modifiers are up to date. - Gamengervi (talk) @ 13:36, 27 August 2016 (CEST)
I created a table and posted it on my user page. I'd like you to take a look at it and, if I have your permission, I would like to replace all the tables in this article with ones similar to that one. In the process of doing so, I will update all the trait modifiers as some of them are incorrect, at least for the current version of the game. - Gamengervi (talk) @ 12:21, 29 August 2016 (CEST)
Feel free to do so ! I think it definitely looks better/more readable with smaller headers when cell content is just a number. Should the "internal name" column (code of trait for console commands) and ruler designer "cost" be generalized to all sections ? Also the actual column may vary depending on section and the most relevant modifiers (i.e for congenital traits At Birth chance / Inherit chance could stay separate, while Fertility could go in "Other modifers" for these) -Romulien (talk) 21:11, 29 August 2016 (CEST)
I'll do some tweaking to see what looks best before I start editing the main article. I think the ruler designer cost could be applicable for every table, at the very least to show that a trait isn't featured in the designer. As for the internal names, I'm not exactly sure what the best course of action is yet. - Gamengervi (talk) @ 22:00, 29 August 2016 (CEST)

A couple of comments on all the updates that have been made to this page recently:

At least for me, the splitting of the virtues/sins into two sections makes it worse. It was much easier when they were together and paired so a direct comparison could be seen without flicking between two tables.

More generally, the tables are far too wide now. I don't know if it is different for others, but the content no longer sits on a single screen width. From how it was, it seems to me that far too much space is given to additional information while other columns have been heavily compressed making them harder to read. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.70.249.141 (Talk) 22:30, 10 September 2016‎ (CEST)

I divided the sins and virtues into two different tables because they were tagged differently in the files, but if others agree that they would be better in a single table, I will put them back together. Now, concerning the width of the tables, they do fit well for me. That being said, I plan to do some major optimization once I have updated all of the traits themselves. I want to display the most information I can as efficiently as possible. If you have any suggestions on ways I can improve the tables, please let me know. - Gamengervi (talk) @ 02:11, 11 September 2016 (CEST)
I think perhaps a solution would be to combine related sections, for example Opinion effects and Other effects into one section which would help shrink the width without losing the additional information. I told Gamengervi I'd doublecheck everything when hes done and I could also make those modifications while I do so. --Joe246 (talk) 04:32, 11 September 2016 (CEST)
One of the things I wanted to do was to eliminated any unnecessary row height. Since so many traits have an opinion modifier, I felt that they warrant their own column. In addition, since some of the opinion modifiers can take up to three rows, I feel that placing them into the Others column would create too much empty vertical space. At least that's my opinion. - Gamengervi (talk) @ 02:43, 11 September 2016 (CEST)
We could do I guess rowspan or something (I'll take a look at what all you can do with wikitables to see if there's a good solution). I definitely see the reasoning though behind trying to keep height down, but I think its usually better to have extra height than extra width since then entire page can then be seen without using horizontal scroll bar, let me know what you think. --Joe246 (talk) 05:04, 11 September 2016 (CEST)

For reference, the table that displays best for me width wise are the special traits, but that's one that probably hasn't been altered so far. There's a lot of vertical height to the rows in that table, but that doesn't bother me while information being off the screen is a nuisance. I'd agree though that normally you'd want to keep to a maximum of two, or three lines per row.

A couple of possible suggestions which may not amount to much, but could help some:

The column of ID numbers. Are they needed at all? I have no idea what they are used for as the internal names are used for console commands. Perhaps I'm just ignorant of something.

The other is with the opinion modifier column. Why not simply label the column 'Opinion', and then say +5 Vassal, +5 Same Trait, -5 Opposite Trait etc. I'm sure everyone would still understand it without it saying opinion on every line, or that it's a modifier in the heading.

I can appreciate what you're trying to achieve by separating everything out. In some cases, I don't believe that always works for the best. The leadership table would be one such case in my mind. Instead of row height providing empty vertical space there's now a lot of empty space horizontally on each row. At most a leadership trait provides two modifiers, and access to a combat tactic. Perhaps limiting it to four columns would be better by bringing casualty and morale modifiers together in one column, and the same for terrain and other modifiers.

The final thought is on the ordering of the page in general. I'll admit to not yet having the latest expansion so I may be biased, but with all of the additional health traits, I believe that section is now occupying too much space towards the top of the page. When I think about a character's traits I do so either in the order I'd view them which would most commonly be education, lifestyle, congenital, personality, leadership, and then anything else. Alternatively, I would do so in the order in which they are generally earned. Health has so far been something that little could be done about, transitory, and not universal. Other than the first point, surely that's still the case, and that section should be further down the page after more permanent traits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.70.249.141 (Talk) 06:07, 11 September 2016 (CEST)

As to the column of ID numbers I believe they have some use for modders, though not being a modder myself I can't say for sure. Regardless though they take so little space anyway eliminating that column wouldn't fix much.
As to separating things out things out I want to look into a way of finding a balance between width and height, having said that also I think having as much relevant information displayed as possible is important. So i'm going to make a modified version of the Health trait section and I'll post it on my user page when I'm finished and update this talk page. While making the proof of concept I'll take a look at [1] for ideas to make it a little more lean without losing the added information.
As to the ordering we could definitely change it around without to much trouble by just cut and pasting the wikitables
Perhaps this could be the new ordering:
  1. Education
    1. Childhood
  2. Congenital
    1. Positive
    2. Negative
    3. Non-Congenital (One could also argue that these belong in the Other traits section)
  3. Personality (We could also reduce the width by having the opposites for each page be just image links to the corresponding trait instead of text)
    1. Seven Sins
    2. Seven Virtues
    3. Other
  4. Religion
    1. Christian
    2. Muslim
    3. Zoroastrian
    4. Sympathy for other religious groups
    5. Bad priests
  5. Lifestyle
  6. Leadership
  7. Health
    1. Diseases
    2. Symptoms
    3. Maimed
  8. Special (this section could probably be eliminated entirely, Viking and Reincarnation in religion, Bastard and Twin non-congenital or personality traits, Eunuch and Blinded in Health traits, etc
--Joe246 (talk) 07:19, 11 September 2016 (CEST)
Firstly, concerning the width, I'm using a 17.3-inch laptop monitor set on 1920 by 1080 pixel resolution and the tables appear fine for me without having to scroll the page. Now, granted, when I play the game in Windowed mode and have the internet off to the side, I do need to scroll and I originally indented to prevent that (for my own convenience, perhaps selfishly), but are other people having scrolling issues even in fullscreen? I've been setting the tables at 100 em units and there's still a ton of space between the edge of the table and the end of the screen for me.
Now, to address the other issues by section;
The trait IDs are used for save-game editing and modding. They were there before I began my edits, I just left them in.
The reason I put, for example, '-5 Vassal Opinion' instead of '-5 Vassal' is because I wanted to write the modifiers as they appeared in-game, but if everyone agrees that shortening them to conserve space is a good idea, I will change them.
I didn't change the leadership traits template too much, really. I just added a cost section for the ruler designer and separated the 'Misc.' section into a 'Other modifiers' section and a 'Combat Tactics' section. I do plan to go back to that template in the future.
As for my opinion on changing the order of the categories, everything was pretty much organized by ID before I started my edits, which essentially organized them by category since all the health traits were together, the personality traits were together, etc. They're ordered the same way as they are in the files. In addition, the problem with eliminating the 'Special' category, like Joe246 suggested, and placing the traits into other categories is that those traits really don't belong there. What I mean is that the personality traits, for example, have the tag 'personality = yes' in them. Blinded and Eunuch do not have the 'is_health = yes' tag. Personally, I think the order is fine the way it is, but I'm no authority on the matter. - Gamengervi (talk) @ 08:10, 11 September 2016 (CEST)
Yeah I'm on 1600X900 and I can confirm that its gets stretched on a smaller monitor, though larger monitors like I use at university displays the page fine.
I would probably shorten the opinion modifier as long as its still clear the form the modifier will take ingame, but its up to you.
As to the leadership traits the problem is the that the rows were pretty long already and the additions have just stretched them even more, so now the table is pretty horizontally stretched on small monitors.
Since that's the way its ordered in the game files I would definitely agree we should keep it in the current order, for ease of updating if nothing else. I organize events in the order of the game files as well for that reason.
Feel free to to let me know of course if you have any ideas for the page and could use some extra help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joe246 (Talk) 08:41, 11 September 2016 (CEST)
Okay, I will shorten the opinion modifiers and see what else I can do about condensing the tables. What's the general consensus on merging the sins and virtues tables? - Gamengervi (talk) @ 08:52, 11 September 2016 (CEST)

Yes, I'm on an older laptop so my screen resolution isn't quite that high. In a couple of months when I've replaced it, I suppose I wouldn't have noticed anything wrong with the the page that way, but it doesn't hurt to try to make it as user friendly as possible.

I did think the trait id's may have something to do with modding, but that's nothing I have an involvement with which is why I've probably never noticed them before. I was merely looking at ways to save space no matter how small, but if it's of use to anyone then it should stay obviously.

Regardless of the saving in width, I'd say the page looks much better with all the repetitiveness removed from the opinion modifiers without it losing any meaning.

The same is true with the leadership traits even if you only adopted one suggestion as the information is less scattered now, and easier to read.

I'd have disagreed with eliminating the Special section in any case. Yes, it's easy to see that some could be considered to fall under another category, but not all. It would also have meant filling the tables further up with less common traits. My own personal preference if the page were reorganized would be along the lines of:

Education
Congenital
Personality
Lifestyle
Leadership
Health
Religion
Special

The counter-argument that's been made to reorganization makes more sense for events than here. I couldn't see any other way of listing events than the way they are, and any attempt to do so would only create more problems than it could possibly solve. Here, I'd suggest it's not as complicated, and surely to make it easier to use the order should follow how commonly the traits in each section are found rather than having to wade past more uncommon/temporary traits all of the time.

Others have yet to comment, but I can only reiterate my preference to the virtues and sins being combined again. It was a lot easier when you only had to look at the line above, or below to see the opposite trait. It also then maintains the pattern shown in the other personality traits: deceitful/honest, brave/shy etc. It's only when you get to cruel that that pattern was broken. Surely as well by separating them you've now already broken the order from the game files? The id's would appear to suggest so.

On to more constructive suggestions I hope:

Diseases section. Is it quite necessary to have a miscellaneous column as only one cell in the column is used? I'm aware that the content of that cell doesn't quite fit into another category, but it's an extravagant use of space as it is.

Symptoms section. Fever is by far the widest, and as there already appears to be some height to the row, could not the icons be placed on two lines?

This suggestion may, or may not be of benefit. There are exceptions obviously, but most of the miscellaneous column is filled with saying 'Opposite of ...'. I'm wondering about the effect of splitting that column in two: one titled opposite, and the other miscellaneous. Under the opposite column it can then simply say kind, shy, etc, together with the icon. Possibly even use the icon alone although I'd be wary that that wouldn't be as helpful to anyone new who's less familiar with them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.70.249.141 (Talk) 17:37, 11 September 2016‎ (CEST)

So it looks like everyone's is on the same page with the opinion modifier then. I would agree that we should also find a good way to shorten the width of the leadership traits table. I posted an example of a modified leadership trait table template on my user page (Just click on my signature) where all I did was remove one line (style="width: 95em"). I assume that style=X is a minimum for the whole table width so I simply removed that minimum. Let me know what you guys think about the change.
I would also second combining the virtues and vices, we'd be killing two birds with one stone since it would conform with ordering of the traits in the order of the game files, and it would also allow the corresponding vices and virtues to be displayed adjacent to its opposite since that's how their ordered in the game files.
I also checked and it looks like my modification for leadership traits does a good job for shrinking the health section as well.
For the ordering of the traits I would suggest we stick with the ordering of the game files. There are obviously problems with that ordering, but personally I think the practical use of the ordering when it comes to updating the trait tables outweighs those problems. Plus with at least two more major expansions coming out these tables will likely need to be heavily updated again in the near future.
Let me know what you guys think, I gonna go have some fun writing event ID tables now--Joe246 (talk) 04:20, 12 September 2016 (CEST)

It looks good to me. Fits perfectly with a small right hand margin remaining. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.70.249.141 (Talk) 21:26, 12 September 2016‎ (CEST)

I will see what I can do. Most likely, changes will be gradual. One issue is that I want all the major (i.e. large) traits tables to be uniformed in style and size, so we will have to find the best style that fits for all of the tables and minimizes width and height while maximizing information presented. It probably won't something we just solve overnight. - Gamengervi (talk) @ 04:01, 13 September 2016 (CEST)
For the time being, how does 88.3 em units look? See: Traits#Christian. - Gamengervi (talk) @ 21:16, 13 September 2016 (CEST)
Too wide for me I'm afraid. I can see almost all of the miscellaneous column, but the rest is off the screen.
I hope no one considers that I've just been critical here. I could see that changes were being made to the page, and given how those were appearing, I considered some feedback would be useful. I've also tried to make what limited suggestions I can. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.70.249.141 (Talk) 13:40, 14 September 2016 (CEST)


[Unindented] As a general suggestion, on an on-going reworks such as this, users are encouraged to create a sandbox within their userpage and experiment with it there. When all changes have been applied to a satisfactory level simply copy back the revised page. While there may still be some minor edits remaining [everyone forgets things] this will cut down the number of edits on the article so one can see more meaningful differences between revisions. Also, do remember to sign your comments with ~~~~. ~ SolSys (talk) 18:07, 14 September 2016 (CEST)

Got you, SolSys. Everyone else, here's what I'm going to do: I'm going to finish the rest of the tables at 88.3 em units and go back and edit the other ones to the same size because, frankly, I just want to make sure everything is updated and get this article out of the way. We can update the tables later after you all decide what the best width is. - Gamengervi (talk) @ 06:54, 15 September 2016 (CEST)

Organization of congenital traits[edit]

Currently we have:

  • Congenital - good
  • Congenital - bad
  • "Non-congenital versions of congenital traits"

It might make more sense to organize them by function:

  • Intelligence (genius, quick, shrewd, dull, slow, imbecile)
  • Vitality (strong, robust, frail, weak)
  • Other congenital

Grouping "good congenital" together makes sense when discussing breeding. On the other hand, grouping "intelligence" and "vitality" together gives us something to link to when describing game mechanics that involve is_smart_trigger, is_weak_trigger, etc.

Jruderman (talk) 11:49, 18 September 2016 (CEST)

I think it is fine the way it is now. I believe what interests people most is how to get good traits or that they get them and recognize the ones they want and the ones they don't and the ones they can't through breeding. Artaios Greybark (talk) 14:36, 28 May 2017 (CEST)

Light Food Leader -> Light Foot Leader[edit]

Currently trait Nr 102's name is "Light Food Leader", I assume this should be "Light Foot Leader" ~Tim

Fixed it in Template:Leader_traits ! -Romulien (talk) 02:18, 4 January 2017 (CET)

Sick Incapable[edit]

There's a special trait with no trait icon called sick_incapable. It acts as an infirm/incapable trait for when you are sick with a disease.

id = 239

sick_incapable = {

is_health = yes

hidden = yes

incapacitating = yes # Will need a regent

customizer = no

random = no

male_insult = INSULT_VEGETABLE

female_insult = INSULT_VEGETABLE

male_insult_adj = INSULT_USELESS

female_insult_adj = INSULT_USELESS

I've tested in console with a character that I know has trait 239, remove_trait sick_incapable and it did remove 239 from traits. Believe this should be added to the health trait table. 140.186.148.185 19:02, 3 August 2017 (CEST)

Pagan leadership in Holy Fury[edit]

There were some new leadership traits added only for the pagans with good military education in recent DLC:

Fearsome - norse_leader - +25% HI combat ability - +increased chance of capturing the enemy leader

Marauder - tengri_leader - +20% LC ca, +10% HC ca, - +20% terrain modifiers Steppe, Plains, Farmlands

Forest Ambusher - baltic_leader - +15% def for all, +30% flanking, - +20% terrain modifier in Forest.

Shield of Tundra - finnish_leader - +10% def for all, +3 winter supply, +25% winter combat, - +20% terrain modifier in Arctic

Pillar of the Plains - slavic_leader - +20% morale damage and +20% moral defence, - +20% terrain modifier in Plains

Spirit Warrior - west_african_leader - +20% LI ca, +20 LC ca, - +20% terrain modifier in Desert

Scorcher - zun_leader - +10% movement speed, +20% for sieges, - +20% terrain modifier in Desert and Mountains

Mountain Guardian - bon_leader - +10% movement speed, +20% LI ca, - +20% terrain modifier in Mountains and Hills

Aenator - hellenic_leader - +10% movement speed, +30% modale damage, +20% morale defence


Need to double check and add these. Mind you, my game is not vanilla already xD

Zodiac Signs with Hermetic Society[edit]

I noticed in my last Byzantine Empire game, my character randomly got a zodiac sign trait after he did the studying the stars mission for the hermetic society. Should this be included?--Starcomet (talk) 22:30, 11 January 2019 (CET)

Suomensuoko Pirates?[edit]

I May Be Understanding The Page Wrong, But It Seems To Suggest That In Order For Me To Get The Pirate Trait As A Suomensuoko Ruler, I'd Need To Buy Holy Fury, Conquer 3 Holy Sites, And Reform The Religion, Which, Frankly, Doesn't Make Much Sense And Seems Like A Lot Of Work To Get One Trait, So Can Somebody Tell Me If I'm Understanding The Page Wrong Or If There's Some Reason For This? ErateD8 (talk) 00:03, 3 March 2019 (CET)

Repatriating this page's contents from templates[edit]

This page's content has partially been exported into templates, which makes it hard to maintain as a single entity and makes it difficult for users to contribute. It seems like Labeled Section Transclusion can do everything that templates did and that it should be used instead. I'll see about making that happen.

--Yannick MG (talk) 03:08, 14 August 2019 (UTC)